Curse

GloryFox · Jun 14, 2007, 04:19 AM // 04:19

Environmental effects for PvP.

Since every PvP player and his guild loves to make fun of PvE and explain to us PvEr's how noobish we are and how we can't do anything without PvP input for skill balances how about creating Environmental effects for PvP arenas and level the playing field.

In this way you can have an arena where the environment has -4 degen during the match or how about a "all shouts cost 5 more mana" when used environment, OR "spirits cost 10 more mana and take 15% longer to cast". The list can be endless.

In this way you can also do a +25 armor cap environment to satisfy the PvP desire to control the Armor stacking in the game.

Have the environments be random or set for particular maps and annoying so they never know what hits them or what to prep for. In this way they will always make Balanced teams to cope with all environments and still allow PvE to enjoy the experience of playing GW.

/signed

Dr Strangelove · Jun 14, 2007, 04:25 AM // 04:25

/notsigned

This is just a lame excuse to keep PvE unbalanced.

Dr.Agon · Jun 14, 2007, 04:34 AM // 04:34

/signed

but not for the same reasons. Honestly I just think it would be fun (and more challenging) to GvG with evironmental effects. However I do think your examples may be over doing it. 1 or 2 degen would be fine imo, and 10e and longer casting time of spirits? Thats overkill. Like the general idea but you got carried away with the specifics.

Though I disagree with why you made this thread. The nerfs ARE needed to fix pvp, and they hardly hurt pve. I mean does it matter if you kill that group in 10 seconds or 30 seconds? If nerfing some skills causes you to die then the skills needed to be nerfed anyway.

Curse You · Jun 14, 2007, 04:41 AM // 04:41

I wonder where an idea like this might have come from... ? <-- click on the question mark

PS I think keeping it simple would be best. Once you start doing things like -2 degen, it gets too much like PvE.

Div · Jun 14, 2007, 04:42 AM // 04:42

/notsigned

Hi. Are you retarded? From this post, you do seem pretty noobish. Notice how PvP = Player vs Player, not Player vs ENVIRONMENT. So why environmental effects?

People can cry all they want about the 25 armor cap, but it's pretty imbal in PvE too. Having a tank soak up so much damage that he ends up taking -0's and -1's from level 28 monsters is not the way to go. It promotes gimmick cookie-cutter builds and less creativity.

Difference between PvP and PvE: PvP'ers actually care about game balance. PvE'ers just want to abuse the strongest skills so they can own the AI and farm everything faster than ever. That's why 90% of the community whines whenever there's a nerf, and proceed to blame it in PvP. If this was a PvE only game, I'm sure Anet would still balance the overpowered skills (oh wait, they suck at skill balance).

ShadowsRequiem · Jun 14, 2007, 04:53 AM // 04:53

Quote:

Originally Posted by holymasamune

/notsigned

Hi. Are you retarded? From this post, you do seem pretty noobish. Notice how PvP = Player vs Player, not Player vs ENVIRONMENT. So why environmental effects?

People can cry all they want about the 25 armor cap, but it's pretty imbal in PvE too. Having a tank soak up so much damage that he ends up taking -0's and -1's from level 28 monsters is not the way to go. It promotes gimmick cookie-cutter builds and less creativity.

Difference between PvP and PvE: PvP'ers actually care about game balance. PvE'ers just want to abuse the strongest skills so they can own the AI and farm everything faster than ever. That's why 90% of the community whines whenever there's a nerf, and proceed to blame it in PvP. If this was a PvE only game, I'm sure Anet would still balance the overpowered skills (oh wait, they suck at skill balance).

:O
bolds post
done.

Curse You · Jun 14, 2007, 04:58 AM // 04:58

Quote:

Originally Posted by holymasamune

People can cry all they want about the 25 armor cap, but it's pretty imbal in PvE too. Having a tank soak up so much damage that he ends up taking -0's and -1's from level 28 monsters is not the way to go. It promotes gimmick cookie-cutter builds and less creativity.

Difference between PvP and PvE: PvP'ers actually care about game balance. PvE'ers just want to abuse the strongest skills so they can own the AI and farm everything faster than ever. That's why 90% of the community whines whenever there's a nerf, and proceed to blame it in PvP. If this was a PvE only game, I'm sure Anet would still balance the overpowered skills (oh wait, they suck at skill balance).

For a tank to be taking no damage from level 28 monsters, they usually have more than just Dolyak Signet and "Watch Yourself!" on them. You seem to forget about the protection spells that are used.

Also, tanks usually don't take no damage, they reduce it to a reasonable amount while the monks heal them. Would you really call an Aatxe balanced? Probably not. So then why should PvE be balanced for PvP? I doubt that there are any enemies in PvP that can deal 200+ damage without using any skills.

ShadowsRequiem · Jun 14, 2007, 05:05 AM // 05:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by Curse You

For a tank to be taking no damage from level 28 monsters, they usually have more than just Dolyak Signet and "Watch Yourself!" on them. You seem to forget about the protection spells that are used.

Also, tanks usually don't take no damage, they reduce it to a reasonable amount while the monks heal them. Would you really call an Aatxe balanced? Probably not. So then why should PvE be balanced for PvP? I doubt that there are any enemies in PvP that can deal 200+ damage without using any skills.

CATAPULT SEIGE! NOOOOOOOO

pvp map already have effects

look at burning isle
lava, that maisma crap, also have buffing like the +1 mending water lol.

Kool Pajamas · Jun 14, 2007, 06:33 AM // 06:33

Oooooh

Glint's random arena

But not anywhere else

arcanemacabre · Jun 14, 2007, 06:40 AM // 06:40

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dr Strangelove

/notsigned

This is just a lame excuse to keep PvE unbalanced.

Yeah, that's exactly what I would say if they implemented level 21+ mobs, environmental effects, multiple overlapping groups, bosses that can hit for insta-kill AoE damage... stuff like that. That would be pretty unbalanced, wouldn't you think?

...yeah.

Chicken Ftw · Jun 14, 2007, 02:33 PM // 14:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by holymasamune

/notsigned

Hi. Are you retarded? From this post, you do seem pretty noobish. Notice how PvP = Player vs Player, not Player vs ENVIRONMENT. So why environmental effects?

People can cry all they want about the 25 armor cap, but it's pretty imbal in PvE too. Having a tank soak up so much damage that he ends up taking -0's and -1's from level 28 monsters is not the way to go. It promotes gimmick cookie-cutter builds and less creativity.

Difference between PvP and PvE: PvP'ers actually care about game balance. PvE'ers just want to abuse the strongest skills so they can own the AI and farm everything faster than ever. That's why 90% of the community whines whenever there's a nerf, and proceed to blame it in PvP. If this was a PvE only game, I'm sure Anet would still balance the overpowered skills (oh wait, they suck at skill balance).

Bolded and underlined. Done.

Ecklipze · Jun 14, 2007, 06:05 PM // 18:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by GloryFox

Environmental effects for PvP.

Since every PvP player and his guild loves to make fun of PvE and explain to us PvEr's how noobish we are and how we can't do anything without PvP input for skill balances how about creating Environmental effects for PvP arenas and level the playing field.

In this way you can have an arena where the environment has -4 degen during the match or how about a "all shouts cost 5 more mana" when used environment, OR "spirits cost 10 more mana and take 15% longer to cast". The list can be endless.

In this way you can also do a +25 armor cap environment to satisfy the PvP desire to control the Armor stacking in the game.

Have the environments be random or set for particular maps and annoying so they never know what hits them or what to prep for. In this way they will always make Balanced teams to cope with all environments and still allow PvE to enjoy the experience of playing GW.

/signed

It's called ENERGY not MANA.

Yichi · Jun 14, 2007, 06:53 PM // 18:53

Quote:

Originally Posted by GloryFox

Environmental effects for PvP.

Since every PvP player and his guild loves to make fun of PvE and explain to us PvEr's how noobish we are and how we can't do anything without PvP input for skill balances how about creating Environmental effects for PvP arenas and level the playing field.

In this way you can have an arena where the environment has -4 degen during the match or how about a "all shouts cost 5 more mana" when used environment, OR "spirits cost 10 more mana and take 15% longer to cast". The list can be endless.

In this way you can also do a +25 armor cap environment to satisfy the PvP desire to control the Armor stacking in the game.

Have the environments be random or set for particular maps and annoying so they never know what hits them or what to prep for. In this way they will always make Balanced teams to cope with all environments and still allow PvE to enjoy the experience of playing GW.

/signed

/unsigned

Its aparent that you dont PVP that often, especially in GvG. Several maps have effects on them that must be delt with while playing. Burning isle has lava that causes crippling and burning and is the fastest way to the flagstand on both sides of the map. also to get to the flagstand you have to go through this lava. Jade isle has the coral to run through which causes 25 damage everytime you touch one. the Isle of Weeping Stone has the stone spores which cause longer cast times on all spells. The imperial isle has the acid traps that must be walked through on your way to the flag. Nomads isle has a huge quicksand area that causes -1 energy on any skill or spell used. The isle of meditation has the Miasma which causes mass degen also has shrines that shoot fireballs at the team that doesnt controll the upper flagstand. Druids isle has the mending water found in the jungle. Frozen Isle has the ice effect such as Marhans Grotto has. Warriors, Hunters, Wizards isles all have catapults which can effectively kill you and your entire party in one hit.

So no there are plenty of effects already implimented in PVP. Just because you dont pay attention to them, doesnt mean they are not there.

Winterclaw · Jun 14, 2007, 07:17 PM // 19:17

/signed

This could work both ways... it can nerf skill unbalanced pve but work fine in pvp and nerf skills that are unbalanced in pvp but work fine in pve. If something is too weak or too powerful in both, give it a general buff/nerf as needed.

Master Ketsu · Jun 14, 2007, 07:52 PM // 19:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by GloryFox

Environmental effects for PvP.

In this way you can have an arena where the environment has -4 degen during the match or how about a "all shouts cost 5 more mana" when used environment, OR "spirits cost 10 more mana and take 15% longer to cast". The list can be endless.

In this way you can also do a +25 armor cap environment to satisfy the PvP desire to control the Armor stacking in the game.

/signed

Uh..wait..whaaaaaaaaaaaat ???

Have you actually played PvP ? PvP is about skill combos, environmental effects like this would just be a hinderance to the strategy, it wouldnt nerf/unerf or balance anything.

Like the first reply stated: This is just a lame excuse to keep PvE unbalanced.

PvE is rediculously easy. You can do pretty much every area with only 4 people if they know what they are doing. Their is a reason why us pvp'rs laugh whenever a pve'r complains about skill balances affecting them.

Trevor · Jun 14, 2007, 08:09 PM // 20:09

The armor nerf didn't change much in PvP. I don't know what you're on about.

HawkofStorms · Jun 14, 2007, 09:05 PM // 21:05

Umm... this already exists.

There is misma in the Shing Jing RA map.
There is the environmental effect "quicksand" in the Nomad Guild Hall in GvGs (2 years before the elite nature ritual of the same name/effect even existed I might add).

Evilsod · Jun 14, 2007, 10:08 PM // 22:08

Anet are absolutely useless at making good environment effects. I really can't see them doing anything but ruin PvP if they did such a thing, Stone Spores in the 1 GH is annoying enough.

MagmaRed · Jun 14, 2007, 11:34 PM // 23:34

I'm a PvE player. I don't enjoy PvP, so don't play it. Because of this, I don't know enough to vote on this issue.

Now, that out of the way, I will comment on skill balance.

95% of skill changes are because of PvP. I don't have a problem with this, as PvP deserves to be made fair. Most PvE players see the changes and whine. Sometimes there is good reason, but not usually. PvE players just see their 'easy' methods become unsable, and can't figure out how to adapt. Most of the changes I saw as bad, I later decided were good, and better. Minion cap at 10 is a prime example. I still miss having 50 minions runningaround destroying things in a mission, but I like it better now. Before, I always had energy problems as an MM. I kept the minions alive for a LONG time, so I didn't get Soul Reaping energy from them dying. Raising more, healing them, and fighting monsters was tough on energy. After the cap of 10 minions was added, my energy problems disappeared. If I have 10 minions, and summon a new one, 1 dies, and I gain energy from Soul Reaping. 10 minions is enough to bodyblock and deal damage to enemy mobs. Was this change made because of PvE? Maybe a little, but it was made more because of exploits used in PvP.

PvP players, however, think that PvE doesn't matter. It does, and although skills don't need to be changed for PvE very often, when they are changed for PvP, they influence a lot in PvE. The Devs may see a balance issue that needs to be fixed in PvP, but before they make any changes, they need to see what that change would do to PvE. Sometimes it isn't enough to stop the change, sometimes it is.

PvE players need to stop whining and realize they can still get by, they just need to adapt to the changes.

PvP players need to realize they are not the most important people playing the game.

Armor nerf is bad in my opinion. PvE is my only basis for this, but many builds - team and solo both - rely on stacking armor skills. A max of +25 is incredibly low when you look at how many skills offer 25 or more by themselves. I can see a need from a PvP standpoint, where a team with very high armor buffs can withstand lots of damage. But making the cap as low as they did has major consequences for PvE players.

Anet, please find things that need to be fixed, but find ways to fix them that does not screw over one portion of the game community for the benefit of another.